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[Bug?] Seeing Red, Stoneskin, Crit, & Damage. [Copy link]

Rank: 1

Post time 2014-8-19 15:54:17 |Show all posts
Okay, lvl 11c Fort/Prow character.  I'm seeing some inconsistencies and statistical impossibilities here, so bear with me.  First, let's take a look at how the Seeing Red and Stoneskin buffs affect the primary stats:
Power:                                            290
Power bonus from gear:                 +12
Power bonus with Seeing Red (II):  +111 (+99 from SR)


Defense:                                         260
Defense bonus from gear:              +12
Defense bonus with Stoneskin (II):  +79 (+67 from SS)

Conclusions:
-Either Seeing Red & Stoneskin have different formulas for how they derive their Stat Bonuses, or there is a bug that is affecting these mechanics.
__
Next, we'll take a look at our unbuffed Damage output, and also how Crit seems to be factored (Data gathered from 50 swings on the Target Dummy):

Weapon Damage (Slow, 2h):           43-74
Weapon DPS:                                  87
Crit %                                              150%, or +50%
Highest Hit:                                      90 (+18%)
Lowest Hit:                                       62 (+31%)
Highest Crit:                                     129 (31% more than Highest Hit)
Lowest Crit:                                      93 (33% more than Lowest Hit)

Conclusions:
-A 290 Power score nets you a Weapon Damage increase of approx. 25%.
-The Character Sheet is lying about how much Crit damage you are getting.

Now let's see how Seeing Red (II) affects actual Damage output (Data gathered from 50 swings on the Target Dummy).  Keep in mind that we are adding 99 Power:

Weapon DPS:                                  94 (+7)
Highest Hit:                                      98 (+25%)
Lowest Hit:                                       69 (+38%)

Conclusions:
-Seeing Red (II) purportedly adds an extra 34% to our Power Score, and the actual net damage increase per swing is approximately 8%.  This seems to be more or less in line with the Power-to-Weapon Damage ratio as it stands.
-The damage bonus from Seeing Red (II) is paltry at best, and is not likely to create a significant influence on gameplay.

But wait, Fake (you might well be saying), Seeing Red also makes Prowess abilities better!  Well, let's see.

Hungry Cleave II:
Unbuffed: 52 dmg
Buffed:     64 dmg
Increase of 18%

Rain of Blows I:
Unbuffed: 48 dmg (3 hits)
Buffed:     60 dmg (3 hits)
Increase of 20%

Swath o' Destruction I:
Unbuffed: 33 dmg
Buffed:     37 dmg
Increase of 11%

Conclusions:
-These abilities do seem to receive a substantially greater increase in damage with Seeing Red, as opposed to how it affects straight weapon damage.  However, a substantial increase from paltry is still pretty crap.
-These abilities would be effective as damage-dealers if they factored in weapon damage.  Why the hell would I use Rain of Blows to do 48 damage when I can just hit the creep with my Nodachi for at least 62?

Please, Spicy Horse, make us want to use these abilities!  <3 ~Fake





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Rank: 3Rank: 3

Post time 2014-8-20 06:41:49 |Show all posts
At first, thanks for doing all that number crunching

As I was very interested in the damage formula too, I made some similar experiments. Perhaps I can add something useful to your findings:

1) Seeing Red and Skin of Stone definitely use different formulas. Look at this:
Seeing Red I:
Char lvl: 1 Power: 60   SR: +27
Char lvl: 2 Power: 90   SR: +36
Char lvl: 3 Power: 120 SR: +45
Char lvl: 4 Power: 150 SR: +54

Skin of Stone I:
Char lvl: 1 Defense: 60   SoS: +21
Char lvl: 2 Defense: 90   SoS: +27
Char lvl: 3 Defense: 120 SoS: +33
Char lvl: 4 Defense: 150 Sos: +39

The bonus of both skills is not a percentage, but an absolute value defined by your Power or Defense value. It is worth noticing that the bonus slightly decreases in efficiency with higher Power. The ratio between base value and bonus is 1 : 2.2 for a char with 60 Power, 1 : 2.8 for 150 Power and 1 : 3.1 for your char with 302 power.

2) How did you calculate the 25%damage bonus? When using your values I would do the following:
"DPS" means damage per second, not damage per swing as it is sometimes misunderstood. A Nodachi needs about 26.5 seconds for 30 swings, which means an attack rate of 1.15 swings per second. The damage per swing (or "DPH", damage per hit) can be calculated by dividing the DPS by the attack rate: 87 / 1.15 = 75.7 This value also corresponds to your highest/lowest hit. The average damage of your weapon is (43 + 74) / 2 = 58.5 The percentage can be calculated by 75.5 / (58.5 / 100%) = 129.4%
A bonus of 29.4% corresponds approximately to the formula I found for my Cunning char:
DPH = Weapon damage + (Power / 1000) *  Weapon damage. In other words: 1% damage bonus for 10 points of Power.

3) I get different values for your critical hit calculations. Your lowest crit is 93 which is exactly 150% of your lowest hit, 62. Your highest crit is 129, 143% of the highest hit, 90. Since a Nodachi has 32 different damage values, we can't be sure that we had the highest possible crit after 50 swings. I'd say there is no lying on the char sheet. At least not on this one ...

4) It has been said often enough in this forum that the buffs need either lower focus cost or longer duration to make up for their paltry effect. But one thing i'm very fond of in Akaneiro is that it requires you to develop new tactics on higher difficulties. On Easy, I'd say "Why the hell should I use a Nodachi with 63 minimum damage when the 48 of Rain of Blows is more than enough to kill several enemies?" Obviously this won't work on Hard or Overrun. The only thing you can rely on for killing there is the steel in your hand. Skills are needed for creating a tactical advantage. For example, Rain of Blows will hardly hurt an enemy on Overrun. But on lvl 3 it will stun several of them, making them perfect victims for Hungry Cleave. Or the Nodachi. Get creative ...

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Rank: 1

Post time 2014-8-20 17:56:06 |Show all posts
Edited by competentfake at 2013-6-30 11:06

I didn't try to factor in the DPS cause I couldn't find figures on what the different weapon speeds are.

I agree that Rain of Blows is probably very useful at Lvl 3, when it stuns, but before that, there's no reason to use it over Hungry Cleave or even straight weapon damage.  I wish I knew more about the mitigation mechanics so I could tell whether or not Stoneskin adds effective survivability, because Seeing Red sure as hell doesn't add much damage.  I think from here on in I'll leave off trying to keep up buffs, they just drain too much energy.
Edit: I just went into a level and let a Ghostclaw beat on me for a bit.  He was hitting me for 86 consistently.  I activated Stoneskin, and he was hitting me for 85.  >.>  This isn't conclusive proof that Stoneskin is useless, but I'd like to see others do the same experiment.

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Rank: 3Rank: 3

Post time 2014-8-21 00:00:47 |Show all posts
On lvl 3, Seeing Red can boost attack rate. I never had it that far, since i'm going for Cunning, but perhaps this proves more useful. Dark Huntsman is in no way better than the other two. I hope (at least a little bit) that it gets more uses on higher levels like "Fully healing plus all spirits at once" or "killing all enemies on the screen with an earth-shattering kaboom".
Right now I have absolutely no clue about damage mitigation. I think it could be possible (assuming from the ratio of the values) that defense and armor just get added and the sum defines a percentual damage reduction. This could explain the poor effect of Skin of Stone, but it would also make the defense value as shown in the char sheet almost meaningless.

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Rank: 2

Post time 2014-9-8 19:12:17 |Show all posts
I believe the reason why SoS doesn't scale as well as SR is because Fortitude makes a much bigger impact in the game.
It affects Defense and Fort Skills such as Chi Mend and Chi Prayer (which I use both actually xD) which are pretty much essential to survivability in Overruns.
Therefore, I believe the "nerf" - let's call it that for the time being - in SoS is reasonable and probably prevents some OP-ness or imbalance.

PS: I love how you guys analyze everything with factual numbers and statistics. xD

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Rank: 3Rank: 3

Post time 2014-9-10 05:34:03 |Show all posts
PS: I love how you guys analyze everything with factual numbers and statistics. xD


Just wait until I finish my analysis of my Fort char ...

It is now on level 22 and has neither Chi Mend nor Chi Prayer. Just health regen. SoS becomes useful on lvl III with the elemental resistance (50%!). So I'd like to say now that you could live without CM/CP completely, but I can hardly imagine how to survive an Overrun without SoS. Since you claim the opposite (and I believe you) this is a good omen for a working in-game balance.

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