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Author: Belzial

New Event EP item model - feedback [Copy link]

Rank: 3Rank: 3

Post time 2015-5-2 06:36:13 |Show all posts
Edited by Pbuck at 2015-5-2 06:37

My opinion : For every disciple/item that someone has to pay to get, there should be an option for free players to get also , but in longer amount of time. A good solution for events for example would be to be able to optain 25-30 item shards by 100k ep, an amount obtainable without hope bottles or adv equips, and then bringing the same item shards a few weeks, months afterwards so free players can complete the items. In that way everyone is relatively happy. Impatient players with money can get the item right away so spicy gets revenue, and free players can wait a few weeks months and get the next 25 item shards on the following event.Alternatively the items can appear afterwards shortly on the shops so free players can complete them. Unfortunately the problems with the shops need to be adressed first, as there are currently too few slots available for too many disciples/items and introducing even more will only magnify the problem. Why is it so bad for spicy to actually allow us to choose the items/disciples we want from the shops? How is this random disciple/item appearance better for the overall game/income/player interest ? For me the game would be MUCH more interesting if i could just choose to buy the cards/items i want without having to wait several months. I would still need at least a month to farm the necessary arena coins/virago but at least the prospect of buying new disciples would be more appealling. As it is , i just cant stand starting all over on  a new element because i cant be arsed to wait so long, so im sticking to 1 team until i lose interest of the game. However, if i was able to make more teams in a reasonable time, my  interest for the game would last alot longer and i would be even more inclined to spend even more money on the game. Win win scenario for me and spicy.

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Rank: 4

Post time 2015-5-2 06:44:05 |Show all posts
A week of hope is like 3000 (get both hope bonus, get 00.00 hope refill, barely sleep). 3000 hope is roughly 110k ep no adv bonus (without counting reach irkalla). Assuming i do that, i still need 9k gold of hope to get 300k.
Let's say i buy adv at 4k because i'm lucky, the ep bonus grants me to reach 300k ep with about 5.5k gold of hope. Despite expectation is even more gold expensive.

I totally agree with Feanyar!
If you don't, a compromise could be half equip before 100k ep and a guarantee that i will not be forced to sell due to equip bag capacity before same equip come back again. In this scenario an unlimited bag capacity, same as shard bag, would be nice.

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Rank: 6Rank: 6

Post time 2015-5-2 08:23:49 |Show all posts
Although it was nice that SH have listened to us and brought back the equipment shard ep rewards I agree with what Feanyar says. If there is too much gap between high spenders and those that play free or off the devils cache then interest levels could suffer. I really believe that player base is going to generate more profit rather than upping the cost for existing players. Still at the end of the day SH need to make money from their product and the players want the gate to stay open, so lets hope things continue to improve and more players will join us in hell.

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Rank: 8Rank: 8

Post time 2015-5-2 08:42:36 |Show all posts
Half the shards B4 100k

3/4 the shards B4 200k

Complete the shards at 300k.

Would seem a more incentive driven route.

I don't actually agree with Feanyar about the worthlessness of getting any amount shards before 100k

"you will only get <50% of the shards needed for an item! That means, you cannot even complete the item if you wait for it to show up a second time in a later equip. Rendering the equipment shards utterly useless! (not to mention how many months it might take for the item to even show up a second time...)"

First of all lets not assume the shards would show up in another event, I would rather shards from different equips showed up, not re-cycling of shards like this healer equip.

Secondly: Nearly all equip shards seem to be coming to the Arena/IM.....that IS a FTP environment (PTP if you want to speed it up in Arena shop, but not IM,)...if you get any free shards from an event be it 20/50 or more or less....you still have the chance (if you really want that equip) to gather the remaining shards from the shops discounted by the amount of shards you have from the Event, yes slow, but yes possible.

I've bought equip I really wanted from shops both IM/Arena from scratch...it hurts your HC/Virago collection but hey thats life. (yes it was slow, but great when it happened!)

So what I'm saying is any free shards given in the EP ranking system is a bonus and far from useless imo...ok we might not be able to complete equip from the event, but it still helps even FTP players on the path to getting that equipment which i think is something we  must not lose sight of, while trying to negotiate a bit more of a generous EP rank rewards scale.....

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Rank: 6Rank: 6

Post time 2015-5-2 09:30:10 |Show all posts
Edited by CORREXTOR at 2015-5-2 08:05
Webby replied at 2015-5-1 17:42
Half the shards B4 100k

3/4 the shards B4 200k

What Feanyar is saying - more players will try to complete an equipment if the amount of EP is at 75K or 100K... now they quadruple the price to 300K... many players will be discourage and can't afford to get that high for ONE equipment... 300K is about or close to $100 for ONE equipment not counting the advantage equipment

Feanyar trying to say raising the EP requirement to 100K or 150K for an equipment would be reasonable rather than 300K - cause it does encourage players and most will be willing to spend a little to climb that high in EP (75K to 150K)

Getting some of the shards or collecting shards for an equipment for NOW is useless but might pays out in the future if given the OPPORTUNITY to compete for the same equipment down the road or available in one of the shops....

I completely say thanks to SH for adding equipment... someone else mentioned they are experimenting with equipment return... I get that but why would they quadruple the EP to 300K... that doesn't drive people to play more or reasonable at all... except they know their strategic approach and THEIR operational needs... it an unrealistic goal at best and only top 50 can get that high in EP (300K) in the first place...

I like the fire disciple this event and I'm thinking about it...

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Rank: 3Rank: 3

Post time 2015-5-2 13:44:40 |Show all posts
Those face shards are pretty much useless to most of the players and you can't even sell them. I'd rather get coins, gold or hope refills instead of those shards if a complete equipment is too much to ask for below 100k EP.

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Rank: 1

Post time 2015-5-2 16:15:05 |Show all posts
Should make equipment reasonably accessible to everyone.

The Creator came down and offered a golden cup - it did not go to the highest bidder.

Abolish greed.

You can create a business model that does not cater to a group, if you cannot, we will know, then so will you.

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Rank: 8Rank: 8

Post time 2015-5-2 18:11:54 |Show all posts
Edited by Webby at 2015-5-2 19:21
Layzee4 replied at 2015-5-2 15:15
Should make equipment reasonably accessible to everyone.

The Creator came down and offered a golden ...

We will know? Who FTP players? Your group? The players in General?

'Cater for a group' ....you mean the PTP players? hmmm well on the whole that makes sound business sense.

That's one of those comments that sails pretty close to the SH rage ocean.

They need to make money, its a business...its not greed.....

If everyone had reasonable access to Equipment then its value as a commodity goes down.

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Rank: 6Rank: 6

Post time 2015-5-3 00:37:56 |Show all posts
Edited by Feanyar at 2015-5-2 17:58
Webby replied at 2015-5-2 01:42
Half the shards B4 100k

3/4 the shards B4 200k

Yes, they are not utterly useless. Theoretically. But in practice, they are for the vast majority of items and cases.
Lets make a quick estimation with a timeline:
Day 0: An event starts with new item X. Player A dedicates a full week of gameplay (hope) into reaching 100k. He gets 20 shards.
Day ~90: There is another event that features item X as "revenge". Player A dedicates another full week of hope to get 100k EP. Now he has 40 shards total.
Day ~120: Item X hits shops. Player A is all hyped up!
Day ~130-140: Player A sees and manages to buy 5 shards of that item for 9k virago or 16500 honor. He has now 45 shards total.
Day ~140-160: Finally! Another 9k virago or 16500 honor and the item is complete!

In total it took Player A 18k virago or 23k honor (= ~13days of marefarm / free arena), two full weeks of farming Irkalla (kinda boring and you might not even need wind augment mats) and waiting about half a year to make use of that initial "investment" of time and hope to get those first 20 shards. And that is for one, single item! A full team need 4*5 or at least 4*3 items. Not to mention secondary teams, that you'll want to build once you exceed an active playtime of >6 months...

Yes, I dare say that is useless in the vast majority of instances. Few items are worth that dedication and even fewer players stay that long in a game where there is little progression to be achieve meanwhile.

If everyone had reasonable access to Equipment then its value as a commodity goes down.

That is only partially true. As long as the access is lower than the need, the value will stay relevant. I think we can all agree that its good for the players to have access to equipment. But lets look at this from SpicyHorses Point of View:

For SH the question is: Do we want our players to be starved for equip?
There are different line of thoughts to balance:
1) "If we deprive them from free access to good equip, they will spend money to get it. If we overdo it, people will quit due to an imbalance towards pay2win. Find the sweet spot between incentives to spend and options to progress-by-play!"
2) "Many players have certain budgets they are willing to spend. We need to keep as many players as possible to earn the budget-limit of as many people as possible. Encourge them to use their budget, but even more so: Encourage them to stay ingame and hooked onto the game. Put a carrot on a stick and if they reach it, offer them a new one!"
3) "What is our main income source? Where can we encourage players to exceed their budget a bit for some extra earning? Lets focus there!"

Regarding 1) IMHO they had a good balance in the past, but lost it. I already touched that in my previous post. According to Tokay, they get lots of "omfg, pay2win" downvotes on steam. Kinda proves my point, that the balance is lost.

Regarding 2) This focuses on "Keep your players busy!". Augments help there. I like it. And a major issue is the "gotta-get-em-all" mentality. As a player you want multiple disciples, multiple team. And if something nice and shiny is released? You want it! It also includes a certain amount of power-creep. But again, that needs balance. To little power-creep and there is no reason for the players to hunt the new stuff. To much power-creep and players are frustrated that their previous "trophies" are useless. And you have a pile of irrelevant clutter in the shops that nobody buys (except out of ignorance maybe).
Keeping you players busy and hooked is also the reason, why its bad to exclude the active freebees and low/mid spenders (category B (pre 2.45) / category b (post 2.45) mentioned in my previous post) from events and items.

Regarding 3) Obviously, I dont have the business numbers of SH, but I dare to assume that events are the main income for SH. And most of that comes from the top30-hunters who want the disciple and push each others into higher and higher EP regions in order to secure a top-rank. That is a competitive scenario and the basic idea is simple:
If more than 30 people, *really* want that disciple, the EP will explode. And those will be willing to exceed their budget in order to secure that top-rank. ;)
If less than 30 people *really* want the disciple, the EP levels will stay low.

We've seen both scenarios in the past. >1M EP for carnal aka. "At the Events of Madness" on one side and really low EP tiers as last weeks "oh, I already forgot who he is".
Now the main question to max. point 3) for SH is: How do me get people to hunt the event-disciple?

Its a bit tricky: One part is power-creep. But beware, to much and people are actually discouraged. They'd give up easily because they think "Oh, well. Wait a bit and there will be something EVEN MORE SUPER OP!".
To little and there is little interest in the new disciple. The investment you'll need to bring the new disciple on par (or even above) your existing team would exceed the actual benefit. And thats where we are back on-topic for equipments!

Currently, there are 3 ways to upgrade a disciple.
1) DB. DB is fine as it is, except maybe the hp/DB quota *cough cough* ;)
2) Augments. They work great (except for the mystery-bug, but SH is working on that). Design-wise I think they have a great balance between effort, availibility and ressource-cost. And they give you progression in multiple small steps! (=motivation to keep going!). The only, minor thing I'd change is the "order" of the elemental mats drop. Make the mats dropped by Irkalla match the events element (and ofc. switch around the others so that all are availible) to even out the elemental-material while maxing your EP/hope ratio.
3) Equipments. And here we go. If equipements are super-duper rare (6months or 50$ per item), it is simply, mathematically impossible for new disciples to outperform the old, existing team. People have less incentives to go for new disciples. Be it to replace their old, "inferior" disciples or build completly new teams. Even if some people are hunting a disciple from an event because they still need that spot/role in their team its unlikely that >30 go hard for it.
And thus no EP-explosion, less income for SH, no budgets that are stretched beyond what the player was originally willing to spend for the game.

Therefore, from a pure business PoV, the answer to the question "Do we want our players to be starved for equip?" that SH should ask themselves, is a clear and definite: Hell, NO!

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Rank: 8Rank: 8

Post time 2015-5-3 02:19:21 |Show all posts
Feanyar replied at 2015-5-2 16:37
Yes, they are not utterly useless. Theoretically. But in practice, they are for the vast majority o ...
Hell, NO!

Keeping the tone light, i see what you did there

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